Curse

dreamex2 · Nov 18, 2005, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrDoomMaster

I had recently left the academy guild to join a different guild more heavily involved in PvP. I'm actually starting to regret the decision because I really miss all of the good folks. I find that being gone for even a week causes me to miss out on meeting the tons of new students we get into the academy.

Why I heard you guys were going into PvP now. It'd be fun to see something like Lady Blue Steel's Running Academy has won a battle in the Hall of Heroes and keeps favor of the gods for America. ^.~ Just for the novelty of it anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrDoomMaster

I could go on all day consuming 5 Gigabytes of server space on Guild Wars Guru in this post about how good the academy is, but this is not possible with words. I guess a good way to put it... the academy is a representation of Love. Love, generally, cannot be expressed with words (unless you're Jesus or something). Thus, I draw the line here with the sob stories on how lady and I met and how good things are.

I would bet you 1000000000x the enrollment fee that you couldn't consume 5 GB of space on the GWG forum :P

From Pong via PM last night (Pong, please tell me if this quote bothers you and I'll take it down, I just think it'll clear the air a bit better ^.~):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pong

I'm srry if you think i got hostile. I guess you could say i'm a very stubborn person when it comes to things I dont think are necessarily right. I dont think you will be seeing much more of me tho. Probably posted a few to many replies. Oh well, let people do what they want. If you want to join something that you think will be fun go for it. Really, i liked talking to you. Srry if i got out of hand.

This should effectively -end- the flaming, seeing as how both sides have decided that they no longer care we should now have a period of relative calm and peace

Although I do admit I will miss the interesting conversation... Oh well, another boring day at the job.

Zoolooman · Nov 18, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindcrime

The 15 ecto admission price is to protect the manual/videos/knowledge we provid against no trustworthy players/runners.

15 ecto is your assurance of trustworthiness? That's absurd. You're telling me that riches equal trust. Doesn't that strike you as a bizarre and arbitrary equivocation?

Let's be realistic. Like a service industry, you charge a high price because it makes the guild gobs of cash and it protects the market value of your goods (by making it inaccessible to the average player and therefore unlikely to spread.) Trust has nothing to do with it.

And it has nothing to do with love either. If this were truly done for love, then you'd let people join because they are charismatic and personable; you'd let them join because you feel you can trust them; you'd let them join because you want more and more people to enjoy what you've enjoyed. You wouldn't shut out the vast majority simply because they couldn't afford to pay you nine times the average wealth of an average account.

As for your videos, your manuals, your certifications... who cares? Running isn't that difficult. I was running Droknar's in the beginning, when people still said it was impossible, and I charged 15k per person. I ran Frozen Forest when people still said it was impossible, and I charged 7k per a person. I ran several people to every city on the map for 150k each. I ran Droknar's the day after the patch added Deep Freeze, and it was still easy. I learned to run all these things on my own, and when asked, I freely described my build, my equipment, and hints on how to use them. I was trying to make running cheap, because running is fun and alleviates the boredom that suffuses PvE.

But obviously, you've taken another route. You've wrapped up the business aspect in a fuzzy ball of love, and using that disguise you've fleeced an unholy amount of ectos from the populace in exchange for very basic information. I won't deny that anyone who joins will learn to run; they'll probably feel great to boot, and well supported in a friendly community. The business wouldn't succeed if it didn't deliver. But I will say that the 15 ecto admission price is the cold stab of greed that pierces through the warm veil and lets us see your core motivations.

William Sunrider · Nov 18, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Well said zoolooman.. well said I exalt you

dreamex2 · Nov 18, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

That was a lot of good rhetoric for very little substance that hasn't already been said (and said recently at that).

It has already been announced that it is a business. You've already admitted that the business must deliver or it wouldn't succeed. Therefore, as long as there is a business that is delivering and no similar equivalent, you really have no right to criticize what the business is charging. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as that. It's incredibly business-smart to float the currency choice using Ectoplasm from a business sense, and it is not hard at all to earn 15 Ectoplasm in a given week.

The only possible way you can topple something like this is if you make a rival service of similar quality at a cheaper price. Otherwise the company that holds monopoly over the market does not have to adjust his/her prices.

So instead of clogging their thread and whining about what they're doing, why don't you, my self-proclaimed, self-taught, runner friend, go out and start up your own services for a low fee (or no fee) at all?

lord_shar · Nov 18, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamex2

That was a lot of good rhetoric for very little substance that hasn't already been said (and said recently at that).

...<SNIP>...

...and the reason we'll keep seeing the same re-hashed anti-LSBRA rhetoric again, and again, and again, is simple: the new posters don't read all of the previous posts, nor do they use the search tool.

RTFM... it's good for the soul!

Yes, I have this shirt too

Zoolooman · Nov 18, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamex2

That was a lot of good rhetoric for very little substance that hasn't already been said (and said recently at that).

What an insightful criticism. Your blatant hand-wave has dismissed my points thoroughly and concisely. Obviously, there is no reason to think that LSBRA's public justifications for an overcharge are weak. Listen up everyone, dreamex2 believes that there is no substance to my criticism, so all my points must be invalid.

Quote:

It has already been announced that it is a business. You've already admitted that the business must deliver or it wouldn't succeed. Therefore, as long as there is a business that is delivering and no similar equivalent, you really have no right to criticize what the business is charging.

Wrong. Monopolies aren't magically immune to criticism, and anyone who thinks they're overcharging has a right to say so. The alternative (learning to run on your own) is not worth the effort it would take to acquire 15 ectoplasm. In effect, she is reaping the rich and ignorant of their cash even though they could learn to run on their own. That's why I'm criticizing this huge cost and their poorly-reasoned justifications for it.

Quote:

If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as that. It's incredibly business-smart to float the currency choice using Ectoplasm from a business sense, and it is not hard at all to earn 15 Ectoplasm in a given week.

I don't use it, and I never planned on using anything like it. I'm not sure how that is at all relevant to my point, or any point in this thread.

Business-smart? If gold could be directly transferred in large quantities, then ectoplasms wouldn't be a currency. Using ectoplasms as currency isn't business-smart: it's a matter of necessity, showing no more insight than a shopkeeper using dollar bills rather than sacks of pennies.

As for earning 15 ecto in a week:

What? You do realize that farming itself is an expensive investment, don't you? You do realize A.net has shown that less than 1/200th of all active accounts farm, don't you?

In fact, the vast majority of accounts have less than 20k gold. They couldn't possibly afford to start farming, let alone purchase or retrieve 15 ectoplasms.

You chose to say it was easy to collecto ectoplasms because it implied that LSBRA's fee was modest. Yet the real data shows you to be awfully, awfully wrong.

Quote:

The only possible way you can topple something like this is if you make a rival service of similar quality at a cheaper price. Otherwise the company that holds monopoly over the market does not have to adjust his/her prices.

I don't care about their monopoly. Read carefully, and think about my point: LSBRA justifies its overcharge not with the cold economic reality, but with a bunch of feel-good fluff. As I said above, if they held to their own philosophy, then they wouldn't effectively equate richness with trustworthiness.

Quote:

So instead of clogging their thread and whining about what they're doing, why don't you, my self-proclaimed, self-taught, runner friend, go out and start up your own services for a low fee (or no fee) at all?

Whining? I see that you have dismissed the arguments before reading them. I never whined about joining LSBRA, because I don't have to join. I'm accusing them of overcharging for a dirt cheap product, which remains true whether or not I create competition.

And as for your challenge: please. I play PvP now, and lack the time to organize a running guild. Further, I'm not going to copy LSBRA and charge people scads of money for basic tips.

killer toast · Nov 18, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

why you all got to playa hate on LBS? i got love for you LBS

blink4ever_tbarker · Nov 18, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

LBS

Im just wondering A) how much money do you have right now cuz it sounds like you can afford a thing or two, and B) can i have some...lol

blink4ever_tbarker · Nov 18, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

I was also wonering if I need to be a Warrior or if i can be a R/W or R/Mo?

capitalist · Nov 18, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by blink4ever_tbarker

I was also wonering if I need to be a Warrior or if i can be a R/W or R/Mo?

You can run whatever you want, as long as you are successful. However, the builds that we use are primarily based on W/Mo, with a few experimental builds using other combinations.

Uppen Arsenal · Nov 18, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

hmmz droknar runs are 15k per team usually on english servers. cos there kinda easy. why so much and why dont runners learn themselves for free. also u need not be w/mo i can run droks alone with my monk. NEVER b4 seen a droknar runner asking for 6k per person ,exept mabee from ascalon.
Zoolooman is correct, ur not helping ur ripping off people who cant think for themselves. kinda like stealing candy from babies. u should b ashamed.
HMMMMZ...virtual love and friendship u mean through ts or txt. mabee real love is what u need. Do u really know these PEOPLE or just their virtual persona.

dreamex2 · Nov 18, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Please don't attempt to start a flame war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoolooman

What an insightful criticism. Your blatant hand-wave has dismissed my points thoroughly and concisely. Obviously, there is no reason to think that LSBRA's public justifications for an overcharge are weak. Listen up everyone, dreamex2 believes that there is no substance to my criticism, so all my points must be invalid.

Did you miss the part where I said "hasn't already been said"? Implying that you have valid points, except they've already been addressed.

Quote:

Wrong. Monopolies aren't magically immune to criticism, and anyone who thinks they're overcharging has a right to say so. The alternative (learning to run on your own) is not worth the effort it would take to acquire 15 ectoplasm. In effect, she is reaping the rich and ignorant of their cash even though they could learn to run on their own. That's why I'm criticizing this huge cost and their poorly-reasoned justifications for it.

Libel and criticism are two different things. I suggest you learn that difference. When you made personal attacks against the business, it goes beyond criticizing the business.

Quote:

I don't use it, and I never planned on using anything like it. I'm not sure how that is at all relevant to my point, or any point in this thread.

Why would you criticize something that you have no intention of ever using?

Quote:

Business-smart? If gold could be directly transferred in large quantities, then ectoplasms wouldn't be a currency. Using ectoplasms as currency isn't business-smart: it's a matter of necessity, showing no more insight than a shopkeeper using dollar bills rather than sacks of pennies.

Question, why do people still trade gold? Hmm? Because they can't just simply use the US Dollar to buy everything they want because suddenly the inventory of US Dollars has increased too much? It's not the same as using Dollar bills vs sacks of pennies, that's like a comparison between Platinum and Gold, two denominations to represent the same core currency. This is like using Gold in real life to buy a service in a foreign currency. It's an individual service and the individual can charge in whatever currency they want. I don't suppose I use Euros or Yen over here in north america, yet that doesn't mean that everytime the value between the Euro and the Dollar shifts, food in Europe gets more expensive does it?

Quote:

As for earning 15 ecto in a week:

What? You do realize that farming itself is an expensive investment, don't you? You do realize A.net has shown that less than 1/200th of all active accounts farm, don't you?

In fact, the vast majority of accounts have less than 20k gold. They couldn't possibly afford to start farming, let alone purchase or retrieve 15 ectoplasms.

Nice try, the people with less than 20k gold are likely the ones who don't have time or don't have the desire to farm. I farm with my warrior and her equipment is entirely from collector's or Droknar's equivalent. It would've cost me less than 10k total (most of which would've been to acquire the armor that I would've needed for late game anyways) to be able to farm. It's not hard, and there are more farming builds on fansites than running builds. It would've been easy for people to earn the money if they decided they wanted it.

If they didn't have time to? Then I doubt they would get much enjoyment of being part of something that preaches community involvement.

Quote:

You chose to say it was easy to collecto ectoplasms because it implied that LSBRA's fee was modest. Yet the real data shows you to be awfully, awfully wrong.

People who don't know how to or don't try to collect Ectoplasm or other forms of money does not mean that it is hard or not possible to do so. I'm sorry, but I find that I cannot fix a car or repair a watch for the life of me, yet it doesn't mean that other people can't.

Quote:

I don't care about their monopoly. Read carefully, and think about my point: LSBRA justifies its overcharge not with the cold economic reality, but with a bunch of feel-good fluff. As I said above, if they held to their own philosophy, then they wouldn't effectively equate richness with trustworthiness.

This may be true, but it still doesn't give you the right to bash them.

Quote:

Whining? I see that you have dismissed the arguments before reading them. I never whined about joining LSBRA, because I don't have to join. I'm accusing them of overcharging for a dirt cheap product, which remains true whether or not I create competition.

I didn't dismiss the argument, it's been argued before, I merely said that there was no more need to argue it again. You have no idea what their product is, and without knowing, you are in no position to claim the value of the product or make a comparison to the price of the service.

Quote:

And as for your challenge: please. I play PvP now, and lack the time to organize a running guild. Further, I'm not going to copy LSBRA and charge people scads of money for basic tips.

Glad to hear you're playing PvP, hope you don't get bored of it too soon, considering that outside of GvG, there's nothing more repetative than PvP. Good luck.

Zoolooman · Nov 19, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamex2

Please don't attempt to start a flame war.

I wasn't ever trying to, but I'm afraid that criticism is seen as bashing, and so I'll give it up here. My points stand as written.

Quote:

Glad to hear you're playing PvP, hope you don't get bored of it too soon, considering that outside of GvG, there's nothing more repetative than PvP. Good luck.

GvG is the only thing I play.

lord_shar · Nov 19, 2005, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoolooman

I wasn't ever trying to, but I'm afraid that criticism is seen as bashing, and so I'll give it up here. My points stand as written.

GvG is the only thing I play.

I tried GvG, but found Quake4 and Fear much more appealing.

Mindcrime · Nov 19, 2005, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindcrime

The 15 ecto admission price is to protect the manual/videos/knowledge we provid against no trustworthy players/runners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoolooman

15 ecto is your assurance of trustworthiness? That's absurd. You're telling me that riches equal trust. Doesn't that strike you as a bizarre and arbitrary equivocation?

Let's be realistic. Like a service industry, you charge a high price because it makes the guild gobs of cash and it protects the market value of your goods (by making it inaccessible to the average player and therefore unlikely to spread.) Trust has nothing to do with it.

And it has nothing to do with love either. If this were truly done for love, then you'd let people join because they are charismatic and personable; you'd let them join because you feel you can trust them; you'd let them join because you want more and more people to enjoy what you've enjoyed. You wouldn't shut out the vast majority simply because they couldn't afford to pay you nine times the average wealth of an average account.

As for your videos, your manuals, your certifications... who cares? Running isn't that difficult. I was running Droknar's in the beginning, when people still said it was impossible, and I charged 15k per person. I ran Frozen Forest when people still said it was impossible, and I charged 7k per a person. I ran several people to every city on the map for 150k each. I ran Droknar's the day after the patch added Deep Freeze, and it was still easy. I learned to run all these things on my own, and when asked, I freely described my build, my equipment, and hints on how to use them. I was trying to make running cheap, because running is fun and alleviates the boredom that suffuses PvE.

But obviously, you've taken another route. You've wrapped up the business aspect in a fuzzy ball of love, and using that disguise you've fleeced an unholy amount of ectos from the populace in exchange for very basic information. I won't deny that anyone who joins will learn to run; they'll probably feel great to boot, and well supported in a friendly community. The business wouldn't succeed if it didn't deliver. But I will say that the 15 ecto admission price is the cold stab of greed that pierces through the warm veil and lets us see your core motivations.

Previous answers on the similar question below

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

Why do we charge 15 ecto? It is a lot of work running the Academy. It is also a threshold that keeps our numbers reasonable for the game economy. Even now we still recieve applications on a daily basis. It filters almost all of the dishonest out. It represents enough of an investment that it helps protect our builds, manuals, videos, and other resources. It shows me that you are serious about learning and running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindcrime

15 ecto is the tuition fee (a moving tuition fee, to describe the current state of the economy market)

The main reason is as statement before to "weed the bad seeds" from entering the academy.
We seek only serious players who are dedicated to play guildwars in a new way, experienced or not. And remember also that we provide a highly quality running-service. Thats why we need this tuition fee to not be swarmed with new students and spend all our time learning the build to others. To bring balance into the academy in other words.

www.lbsra.net

-Elita-

Senator Tom · Nov 19, 2005, 01:46 AM // 01:46

when will i know if i got in?

masterbeef · Nov 19, 2005, 01:56 AM // 01:56

LBSRA not LSBRA -.-

Osirod · Nov 19, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

I'm just wondering guys, do you think that new patch made running harder? Harder by having worms chase you all over. I can still do it but they really bother me. It's pretty hard to handle them, I die 1:3 or something around that. So, how do you think the patch affected Drok's running?

November Raine · Nov 19, 2005, 02:13 AM // 02:13

the patch has definitely made the droks run harder, but we are working on it extensively trying new builds, new stagedies, basically anything that comes to mind.

If you have an idea and want it tested out go ahead and PM LBS, myself, or anyone else.

Senator Tom · Nov 19, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

no dont pm them with a new build...make them pay 15 ectos for it